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	<title>Comments on: Combat sans Hit Points</title>
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	<description>Campaign Development for Busy Game Masters</description>
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		<title>By: Erin Smale</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Smale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-235</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-234&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Balesir &lt;/a&gt; : I was just discussing the very complex and colour-coded Hârnmaster combat matrix with a gamer friend last week. I like the outcomes, but found (when I ran a Hârnmaster campaign waaaay back in the day) that I didn&#039;t do well having to refer to it for every attack during a fight.

From a realism standpoint, it&#039;s debatable that wound penalties (or, at least, the effects of certain wounds) would significantly penalise the target. But from a game mechanics perspective, the method above is simply designed to give wounds more impact than merely losing hit points. That said, the next incarnation of Chimera (hint, hint) will handle wound penalties in a &lt;i&gt;slightly&lt;/i&gt; different way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-234" rel="nofollow">@Balesir </a> : I was just discussing the very complex and colour-coded Hârnmaster combat matrix with a gamer friend last week. I like the outcomes, but found (when I ran a Hârnmaster campaign waaaay back in the day) that I didn&#8217;t do well having to refer to it for every attack during a fight.</p>
<p>From a realism standpoint, it&#8217;s debatable that wound penalties (or, at least, the effects of certain wounds) would significantly penalise the target. But from a game mechanics perspective, the method above is simply designed to give wounds more impact than merely losing hit points. That said, the next incarnation of Chimera (hint, hint) will handle wound penalties in a <i>slightly</i> different way.</p>
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		<title>By: Balesir</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>Balesir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-234</guid>
		<description>This was done by HârnMaster back in 1985 or so.  The latest editions are available here (http://www.kelestia.com/index.php) and here (http://www.columbiagames.com/).  Why two?  Don&#039;t ask...

The only dubious point taking into account current research is that it is doubtful that wounds that do not incapacitate should inhibit a combatant any more than the mechanical effects they have on his or her body&#039;s operation.  The key here is &quot;wounds that do not incapacitate&quot; - as non-lethal wounds may well do this for physical or psychological reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was done by HârnMaster back in 1985 or so.  The latest editions are available here (<a href="http://www.kelestia.com/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.kelestia.com/index.php</a>) and here (<a href="http://www.columbiagames.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.columbiagames.com/</a>).  Why two?  Don&#8217;t ask&#8230;</p>
<p>The only dubious point taking into account current research is that it is doubtful that wounds that do not incapacitate should inhibit a combatant any more than the mechanical effects they have on his or her body&#8217;s operation.  The key here is &#8220;wounds that do not incapacitate&#8221; &#8211; as non-lethal wounds may well do this for physical or psychological reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Smale</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Smale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-104</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-100&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jake &lt;/a&gt; 
While I agree that getting shot is a good way to get wounded, I think I understand where Mark is coming from. I read a lot of WWII history, and (with all respect due to servicemen), I&#039;m constantly surprised by how much physical punishment a fit and well-trained GI, Landser, or partisan can take and still survive. That casualties are typically higher than KIA suggests that there&#039;s a physical aspect that lets some absorb damage better than others.

BTW, Chimera treats unarmed combat damage as fatigue, which can eventually be fatal, but it&#039;s largely non-lethal damage unless you get a &lt;em&gt;serious&lt;/em&gt; beat down.

PS - Unless I&#039;m mistaken, your email address tells me you read a lot of WWII history, too ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-100" rel="nofollow">@Jake </a><br />
While I agree that getting shot is a good way to get wounded, I think I understand where Mark is coming from. I read a lot of WWII history, and (with all respect due to servicemen), I&#8217;m constantly surprised by how much physical punishment a fit and well-trained GI, Landser, or partisan can take and still survive. That casualties are typically higher than KIA suggests that there&#8217;s a physical aspect that lets some absorb damage better than others.</p>
<p>BTW, Chimera treats unarmed combat damage as fatigue, which can eventually be fatal, but it&#8217;s largely non-lethal damage unless you get a <em>serious</em> beat down.</p>
<p>PS &#8211; Unless I&#8217;m mistaken, your email address tells me you read a lot of WWII history, too <img src='http://www.welshpiper.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Erin Smale</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Smale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-103</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-101&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jake&lt;/a&gt;
You stated the point I was trying to make better than I did - automatic hit points for level advancement unbalances the campaign because you need opponents that deal out all sorts of hurt just to keep characters from trouncing everything they encounter. At low levels, there&#039;s better balance, but at higher levels, it really does get harder to suspend disbelief. When beholders and drow pop up from behind every rock - just because they&#039;re the only monsters capable of challenging the party - I think that&#039;s a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-101" rel="nofollow">@Jake</a><br />
You stated the point I was trying to make better than I did &#8211; automatic hit points for level advancement unbalances the campaign because you need opponents that deal out all sorts of hurt just to keep characters from trouncing everything they encounter. At low levels, there&#8217;s better balance, but at higher levels, it really does get harder to suspend disbelief. When beholders and drow pop up from behind every rock &#8211; just because they&#8217;re the only monsters capable of challenging the party &#8211; I think that&#8217;s a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-101</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-91&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Erin Smale  &lt;/a&gt; 
Sadly, I think Riddle of Steel is out of print. A real shame. If you see a copy for a reasonable price, snatch it up.

I don&#039;t think hitpoints are really all that bad providing that damage scaled along with it. Sadly, in most HP games, you gain more hitpoints per level of advancement than you do damage. Tword higher levels, it really DOES become a grind. As you said, zzzzzzz...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-91" rel="nofollow">@Erin Smale  </a><br />
Sadly, I think Riddle of Steel is out of print. A real shame. If you see a copy for a reasonable price, snatch it up.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think hitpoints are really all that bad providing that damage scaled along with it. Sadly, in most HP games, you gain more hitpoints per level of advancement than you do damage. Tword higher levels, it really DOES become a grind. As you said, zzzzzzz&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-100</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-96&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Mark  &lt;/a&gt; 
Yeah, but that&#039;s just for unarmed fighting. You can train 24/7 and you probably won&#039;t be any better at taking bullets to the chest than a newb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-96" rel="nofollow">@Mark  </a><br />
Yeah, but that&#8217;s just for unarmed fighting. You can train 24/7 and you probably won&#8217;t be any better at taking bullets to the chest than a newb.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Smale</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Smale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-99</guid>
		<description>Rich, I see what you&#039;re saying. I think it boils down to how you envision the fight sequence. In movies, combat survivability seems as much about deflecting or soaking up damage as avoiding blows--perhaps moreso. Spiderman gets hit a &lt;strong&gt;lot &lt;/strong&gt;in the films. In fact, he takes a terrific amount of physical punishment--ripped costume, bloody scratches, messed up hair. But his ability to absorb/ignore the damage makes him hard to put down.

So (ignoring Spiderman&#039;s ability to completely dodge attacks) I&#039;d say that Green Goblin would hit Spidey and Aunt Mae with equal probability. But Spidey can withstand the damage much, much better that Auntie--he&#039;ll get banged up in the process, and maybe even take an actual wound or two, but it&#039;s very unlikely that he&#039;ll actually succumb to being hit. Aunt Mae, unfortunately, probably won&#039;t make it past the first pumpkin bomb.

BTW, this is exactly why Chimera uses a modular trait system. If you think a given trait should be applied universally (i.e., it should be part of the core mechanics), you can simply make it so. If you decide that only those who work for it get it, of you want to restrict its distribution to maintain balance, keep it as a trait. It all depends on how you want to run your game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich, I see what you&#8217;re saying. I think it boils down to how you envision the fight sequence. In movies, combat survivability seems as much about deflecting or soaking up damage as avoiding blows&#8211;perhaps moreso. Spiderman gets hit a <strong>lot </strong>in the films. In fact, he takes a terrific amount of physical punishment&#8211;ripped costume, bloody scratches, messed up hair. But his ability to absorb/ignore the damage makes him hard to put down.</p>
<p>So (ignoring Spiderman&#8217;s ability to completely dodge attacks) I&#8217;d say that Green Goblin would hit Spidey and Aunt Mae with equal probability. But Spidey can withstand the damage much, much better that Auntie&#8211;he&#8217;ll get banged up in the process, and maybe even take an actual wound or two, but it&#8217;s very unlikely that he&#8217;ll actually succumb to being hit. Aunt Mae, unfortunately, probably won&#8217;t make it past the first pumpkin bomb.</p>
<p>BTW, this is exactly why Chimera uses a modular trait system. If you think a given trait should be applied universally (i.e., it should be part of the core mechanics), you can simply make it so. If you decide that only those who work for it get it, of you want to restrict its distribution to maintain balance, keep it as a trait. It all depends on how you want to run your game.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Smale</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Smale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-98</guid>
		<description>Point taken, Mark. My statement was poorly worded. What I should have said was something like, &quot;I wanted to decouple automatic combat benefits from character advancement (i.e., combat ability can be improved by characters as they advance, but only if they deliberately acquire the appropriate traits).&quot;
 
In Chimera (which is my favourite example), you can choose a lot of different traits to hone your combat abilities, including resistance to damage or wound effects (see my previous comment to Rich). But they&#039;re not automatic in the way that, for instance, you get hit points every time you gain a level. The deliberate choice part--where you select specific traits for specifically desired characteristics--is what I was aiming for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point taken, Mark. My statement was poorly worded. What I should have said was something like, &#8220;I wanted to decouple automatic combat benefits from character advancement (i.e., combat ability can be improved by characters as they advance, but only if they deliberately acquire the appropriate traits).&#8221;</p>
<p>In Chimera (which is my favourite example), you can choose a lot of different traits to hone your combat abilities, including resistance to damage or wound effects (see my previous comment to Rich). But they&#8217;re not automatic in the way that, for instance, you get hit points every time you gain a level. The deliberate choice part&#8211;where you select specific traits for specifically desired characteristics&#8211;is what I was aiming for.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Spainhour</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Spainhour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-97</guid>
		<description>I really like those two traits.  In fact, I think they&#039;re darn-near mandatory...otherwise, in a Marvel Superhero game, the Green Goblin would find Spider-Man is no harder to hit than Aunt May.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like those two traits.  In fact, I think they&#8217;re darn-near mandatory&#8230;otherwise, in a Marvel Superhero game, the Green Goblin would find Spider-Man is no harder to hit than Aunt May.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-96</guid>
		<description>Nice site. I enjoyed what I&#039;ve read, and need to make time to read everything.

You wrote: &quot;I wanted to decouple damage tolerance from character advancement (i.e., experience should have nothing to do with how much damage you can take).&quot;

I understand what you mean, but there is a relation between experience and durability, as evidenced by the brutality that professional fighters can withstand. Fight training does increase muscle mass and bone density, which translates into being better able to withstand damage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice site. I enjoyed what I&#8217;ve read, and need to make time to read everything.</p>
<p>You wrote: &#8220;I wanted to decouple damage tolerance from character advancement (i.e., experience should have nothing to do with how much damage you can take).&#8221;</p>
<p>I understand what you mean, but there is a relation between experience and durability, as evidenced by the brutality that professional fighters can withstand. Fight training does increase muscle mass and bone density, which translates into being better able to withstand damage.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Smale</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Smale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-95</guid>
		<description>In short, it doesn&#039;t. There are traits that mitigate or nullify the effects of a successful hit, but they don&#039;t affect hit probability. For example, Block improves a shield&#039;s protection, Buttress does the same with armour. Grizzled improves Knock-out rolls, Tough improves damage resistance, and Stalwart lets you ignore a certain amount of wound severity.

That said, if you want to improve a combatant&#039;s defence, maybe a couple of traits do the job:

&lt;strong&gt;Parry&lt;/strong&gt;
Allows you to use hand-held weapons to block incoming melee blows.
I: Reduce attacker&#039;s Action Roll by 0-2 (1d6-4), plus your Fight SB
II: Reduce attacker&#039;s Action Roll by 0-4 (1d8-4), plus your Fight SB
III: Reduce attacker&#039;s Action Roll by 0-8 (1d12-4), plus your Fight SB

&lt;strong&gt;Counterstrike&lt;/strong&gt;
Allows you to exploit weaknesses in an attacker&#039;s fighting style.
I: Make a free strike when foe&#039;s melee attack results in Critical Failure
II: Make a free strike when foe&#039;s melee attack results in Normal Failure
III: Make a free strike when foe&#039;s melee attack results in Normal Success

I suggest traits because then you&#039;re not touching the core mechanics; only characters with the trait get the ability, so it&#039;s easier to retain game balance. Plus it helps differentiate combat encounters, since not all combatants will have these abilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In short, it doesn&#8217;t. There are traits that mitigate or nullify the effects of a successful hit, but they don&#8217;t affect hit probability. For example, Block improves a shield&#8217;s protection, Buttress does the same with armour. Grizzled improves Knock-out rolls, Tough improves damage resistance, and Stalwart lets you ignore a certain amount of wound severity.</p>
<p>That said, if you want to improve a combatant&#8217;s defence, maybe a couple of traits do the job:</p>
<p><strong>Parry</strong><br />
Allows you to use hand-held weapons to block incoming melee blows.<br />
I: Reduce attacker&#8217;s Action Roll by 0-2 (1d6-4), plus your Fight SB<br />
II: Reduce attacker&#8217;s Action Roll by 0-4 (1d8-4), plus your Fight SB<br />
III: Reduce attacker&#8217;s Action Roll by 0-8 (1d12-4), plus your Fight SB</p>
<p><strong>Counterstrike</strong><br />
Allows you to exploit weaknesses in an attacker&#8217;s fighting style.<br />
I: Make a free strike when foe&#8217;s melee attack results in Critical Failure<br />
II: Make a free strike when foe&#8217;s melee attack results in Normal Failure<br />
III: Make a free strike when foe&#8217;s melee attack results in Normal Success</p>
<p>I suggest traits because then you&#8217;re not touching the core mechanics; only characters with the trait get the ability, so it&#8217;s easier to retain game balance. Plus it helps differentiate combat encounters, since not all combatants will have these abilities.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Spainhour</title>
		<link>http://www.welshpiper.com/combat-sans-hit-points/comment-page-1/#comment-94</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Spainhour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=615#comment-94</guid>
		<description>&quot;When attacking, make an Action Roll with either your Fight (mêlée) or Shoot (missile) skill.&quot;

How does a defender&#039;s skill at combat affect the probability of a hit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When attacking, make an Action Roll with either your Fight (mêlée) or Shoot (missile) skill.&#8221;</p>
<p>How does a defender&#8217;s skill at combat affect the probability of a hit?</p>
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