Comments on: Area of Effect http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/ Campaign Development for Busy Game Masters Wed, 01 Feb 2012 02:06:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Erin Smale http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-385 Erin Smale Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:09:03 +0000 http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=908#comment-385 <a href="#comment-382" rel="nofollow">@deimos3428 </a> : Good distinction, Deimos. If the game were all about minis and a battlemat, it would be easier. I hear the point about ground zero, too--in the 2.1 upgrade, targets in the blast radius get a DEX check for half-damage, except for the poor sod at ground zero. <a href="#comment-383" rel="nofollow">@Rich Spainhour </a> : Thanks for making me take another sip of my own Kool Aid. Chimera is all about abstractions, so why complexify this? Thanks for the feedback, guys. Single Target it is! @deimos3428 : Good distinction, Deimos. If the game were all about minis and a battlemat, it would be easier. I hear the point about ground zero, too–in the 2.1 upgrade, targets in the blast radius get a DEX check for half-damage, except for the poor sod at ground zero.

@Rich Spainhour : Thanks for making me take another sip of my own Kool Aid. Chimera is all about abstractions, so why complexify this?

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Single Target it is!

]]> By: Rich Spainhour http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-383 Rich Spainhour Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:27:12 +0000 http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=908#comment-383 My vote would be for Single Target, because it's simpler (as illustrated by jrients). Look, the whole concept of a defined Area of Effect is a gamey abstraction to make the rules easier to read and apply. Post-combat analysis has revealed dozens of cases where a soldier has a grenade or mortar round go off almost at his feet and survived relatively unscathed, while another was killed or severely wounded by flying shrapnel despite being 100m away from ground zero. Every explosion is different, a chaotic system in miniature, but we make them deterministic in-game to keep play flowing (a more "realistic" ruleset would have random processes for determining the size, shape, overpressure intensity, shrapnel density, etc. for each grenade thrown). Since we're abstracting so hard anyway, make the simpler choice. That said, it's not a deal-breaker either way you go. Keep up the good work...I'm looking fwd to downloading Chimera 2.1! My vote would be for Single Target, because it’s simpler (as illustrated by jrients). Look, the whole concept of a defined Area of Effect is a gamey abstraction to make the rules easier to read and apply. Post-combat analysis has revealed dozens of cases where a soldier has a grenade or mortar round go off almost at his feet and survived relatively unscathed, while another was killed or severely wounded by flying shrapnel despite being 100m away from ground zero. Every explosion is different, a chaotic system in miniature, but we make them deterministic in-game to keep play flowing (a more “realistic” ruleset would have random processes for determining the size, shape, overpressure intensity, shrapnel density, etc. for each grenade thrown). Since we’re abstracting so hard anyway, make the simpler choice. That said, it’s not a deal-breaker either way you go. Keep up the good work…I’m looking fwd to downloading Chimera 2.1!

]]> By: deimos3428 http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-382 deimos3428 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:37:17 +0000 http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=908#comment-382 I'm going to cheat a bit in my response, as it is conditional -- but it won't bog down play as you only need to think about it before play starts. I believe it depends on the type of game you're playing, and the decision needs to be made on a per-game basis. The Single Blast Argument works best in a tactical game, particularly one with fixed damage. In that case things like surface area and facing become more important. (Consider a donut-shaped alien mothership...it really should take more damage.) The Single Target Argument is a more reasonable abstraction for a non-tactical game with variable damage dice where you generally just want something fast and loose. As you noted, there is a "ground zero" which could be used to handle this seeming disparity -- at least in part. In the second example, the tank is within the ground zero and might perhaps take double damage. I’m going to cheat a bit in my response, as it is conditional — but it won’t bog down play as you only need to think about it before play starts. I believe it depends on the type of game you’re playing, and the decision needs to be made on a per-game basis.

The Single Blast Argument works best in a tactical game, particularly one with fixed damage. In that case things like surface area and facing become more important. (Consider a donut-shaped alien mothership…it really should take more damage.)

The Single Target Argument is a more reasonable abstraction for a non-tactical game with variable damage dice where you generally just want something fast and loose. As you noted, there is a “ground zero” which could be used to handle this seeming disparity — at least in part. In the second example, the tank is within the ground zero and might perhaps take double damage.

]]> By: Erin Smale http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-378 Erin Smale Sun, 28 Mar 2010 01:33:36 +0000 http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=908#comment-378 <b>UPDATE</b> - 27 Mar 2010 I posed the question to Jeff (yes, <i>that</i> <a href="http://jrients.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Jeff</a>), who replied sent the following email (permission to quote given): <blockquote>For me this comes down to the question: What if I don't have minis and a grid out? Under these circumstances I just have to make best guesses about who is hit with an area of effect and who isn't. With Single Target all I have to do is figure out who is caught in the blast. With Single Blast I have to figure out how much each target is in the blast radius as well. That introduces an extra step that I don't particularly want to deal with. So based upon the purely practical consideration of not letting the rules bog me down in play I vote for Single Target.</blockquote> While I noted that this issue really only comes up when using figures, Jeff intimates a good point: you want a rule that will apply in all situations, minis or not. The pendulum is swinging the other way... UPDATE – 27 Mar 2010
I posed the question to Jeff (yes, that Jeff), who replied sent the following email (permission to quote given):

For me this comes down to the question: What if I don’t have minis and a grid out? Under these circumstances I just have to make best guesses about who is hit with an area of effect and who isn’t. With Single Target all I have to do is figure out who is caught in the blast. With Single Blast I have to figure out how much each target is in the blast radius as well. That introduces an extra step that I don’t particularly want to deal with. So based upon the purely practical consideration of not letting the rules bog me down in play I vote for Single Target.

While I noted that this issue really only comes up when using figures, Jeff intimates a good point: you want a rule that will apply in all situations, minis or not.

The pendulum is swinging the other way…

]]> By: Erin Smale http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-373 Erin Smale Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:54:08 +0000 http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=908#comment-373 <a href="#comment-371" rel="nofollow">@Syrsuro </a> : Right. I see what you're saying. In most cases, a 2-square tank might have greater resistance to damage than a mini, 1-square tank. But not always... @Syrsuro : Right. I see what you’re saying. In most cases, a 2-square tank might have greater resistance to damage than a mini, 1-square tank. But not always…

]]> By: Syrsuro http://www.welshpiper.com/area-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-371 Syrsuro Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:12:01 +0000 http://www.welshpiper.com/?p=908#comment-371 I would say the answer hinges upon one factor: is the ability to absorb damage/ the damage required to incapacitate the target proportional to the size of the target or not. Imagine two (mini)tanks, each taking one square compared to a single tank that takes two squares. If the larger tank was able to absorb twice (or more) of the damage, than making the effectiveness of area of effect attacks increase proportionally to the size as well would make sense. But if the ability to absorb damage is not related to the size, then you end up making large targets disproportionatly vulnerable to area blasts. Carl I would say the answer hinges upon one factor: is the ability to absorb damage/ the damage required to incapacitate the target proportional to the size of the target or not.

Imagine two (mini)tanks, each taking one square compared to a single tank that takes two squares.

If the larger tank was able to absorb twice (or more) of the damage, than making the effectiveness of area of effect attacks increase proportionally to the size as well would make sense. But if the ability to absorb damage is not related to the size, then you end up making large targets disproportionatly vulnerable to area blasts.

Carl

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